How does this compare with Nikon DF, D4s, 1Dx, 6D. The Df and D4s are better high ISO lowlight iqoption blog, unless there s something very wrong with the various A7s samples posted here and at Imaging Resource. None can really be used at ISO 100,000. Yep A7S is 1-2-3 stops better than Canon or A7R after ISO51000, but I think this advantage useless. IQ is already so bad, that image is barely usable.
For me it would be much important to have 2 stops cleaner image ISO6400 or 12800. It would extend the usable ISO range. On the contrary, what we have now is comparison of different sorts of crap. Yes, one crap is twice as good as the other, but you know, it is still crap. I am still trying to figure out why cameras need ISO levels above 12800, especially those not targeting professionals who might occasionally need that capability.
I suspect it s because the manufacturer wants a competitive edge in the Specs. My camera can shoot at ISO 400,000 and yours cannot. It is purely marketing. OVF in the digital era is half-baked half-screwed. Lots of non-photographers coming to the market and manufacturer must justify the price size weight difference comparing to the P S. First, in order to push p s sales because of cell-phonesthey pushed the P S ISO up to DSLR s level, although max acceptable ISO is still.
400, now they are pushing DSLR s sensitivities. I find it amazing how narrow minded some people are that are supposed to be working in a creative field. Just because high ISO does not give you any advantage to how you photograph does not make it worthless. Event photographers, street photographers and documentary photographers would all probably love good usable high ISO camera. You might find some of these photographers also have a different opinion of what quality is then you.
I personally find this camera very interesting and look forward to see how it performs in real world examples. Under stadium lighting. Even a rank amateur like myself can appreciate higher iso performance in certain conditions, that s 99 of what i like to do. DxO has previously verified that Sony partially cooks their RAW data for noise reduction purposes so rendered files appear to have less noise and better performance characteristics. quote If reducing noise is so easy, why is it not always applied.
Well, there is a price to pay averaging pixels increases SNR, but introduces some correlation between pixels. This creates a grainy aspect to the image which is often as annoying as noise itself. Moreover, if pixels are blindly averaged, fine details may simply be erased. a similar high ISO benefit could be achieved in post using non-sony sensors, with the exception that the photographer selects which regions and compromises are applied. as DxOmark hasn t broken out how different RAW files from different sensors are treated, comparisons of this kind appear much like RAW batter to cooked fudge.
while fudge tastes great, i m not sure DxO s recipe is absolute. This was on much older Sony sensors, like the A900. DxO tests every camera for signs of raw noise reduction and reports it as an open circle on the SNR DR charts when found. Based on the charts they did not detect noise reduction on the A7s. Interestingly they did on the Canon 1DX. At ISO 51000 and higher Canon has so much noise than A7S, that no amount of NR would help. Actually at this amount of noise, NR is totally useless.
What the previous two said. You can download the RAW files yourself apply NR to see if you can get any real image detail out of the highest ISO shots. See if you can match the A7S in terms of shadow detail retention at ISO 204k 409k. DxOMark s Full SNR curves show that the pixel-level SNR of the A7S at ISO 409k is higher than that for the 5D Mark III in shadows. At some point brighter tonesthe SNR curves cross, the 5DIII ISO 102k takes over with higher SNR. Naturally, as these brighter tones are photon shot noise limited therefore benefit from the longer exposure at ISO 102k.
Now, those are pixel-level SNR curves. Normalization will shift the ISO 102k 5DIII curve to the left, which ll move its crossing point with the A7S 409k curve to the left. In other words, the 5DIII ISO 102k file will be better at slightly darker tones than what the crossover point currently suggests. But I doubt it ll move that muchso A7S 402k shadows will continue to show a 2 EV advantage. But let me repeat this 2 EV advantage is really only for darker tones at the highest ISOs 204k 409k, judging from my visual tests.
The advantage starts to decrease as you go to brighter tones. That s no easy task, so the A7S should be applauded for what it s doing here. Whether or not this advantage actually makes a significant difference to your type of shooting is another matter entirely, of course. I ll see if I can get my hands on normalized full SNR curves to correlate with the visual analyses presented in this article. You are quoting an article published Tuesday March 10 2009.
How do we know this is at all relevant today. After a quick look at the RAW comparisons of the A7s and the 5D3, I must say it l0oks like we are splitting hairs here. They all look pretty similar to me with the 5D3 perhaps retaining more highlight detail. The thing is that on many shoots I have been more than happy with my 6D s performance at 25000iso.
I am actually just blown over by the quality of the images. I have even made A2 prints of theatre images and the quality is just superb ,but I am sure this quality can also be had from Nikon, Sony etc. I even bought DXO because of the many times I find myself using 25000 iso and after my initial test DXO looks like the king of noise reduction, imo only of course. We are living in good times. Ok, Ivan, nice to meet one person who often uses ISO 25,000.
See my recent post about ultra high ISO. I wonder what you shoot. But can you imagine needing a camera with ISO 400,000. A lot of comments read like Yes A7S makes sense at 6400 ISO but who shoots that. The other cameras beat it soundly at base ISO. But similarly, who needs all the detail of a FF camera at base ISO. You put it on a monitor, even a 4k monitor, that s a lot of crop.
You print it out, that s a lot of wall space. The A7S is fractionally less wall space and fractionally less cropping. That s not much of a sacrifice for the added sensitivity. If I have all the light in the world and reach for an A7S instead of an A7R, how much practical difference does it make. I say little to none. In bad light, it makes a big difference. You guys have it backwards. Not simply at ISO above 6400 but ONLY in shadows. A device for detecting a black cat in a dark room.
That s a pretty silly argument. Canon has the clear advantage up to ISO 1600, it is about a draw from 1600 to 25600 with Sony having a VERY slight advantage strictly defined by noise but Canon having clearly superior all around image quality due to highlight performance, with Sony finally pulling ahead of Canon over 25600. 25600 is pretty well up there. So Canon s superiority goes well beyond base ISO and it s only in the realm where both look terrible that Sony has an advantage.
So you re saying when they re both great, one is better than the other but when they re both bad, neither is useful. Good Enough more than describes low ISO performance on all of these cameras. It s getting to the point where people want more quality than their eyes can see. I don t need good sound reproduction at 40,000 hz, I can t hear it. I don t need more detail in a shot than I can see on a 4k screen. What I m saying is ISO 25600 is not base ISO or low ISO.
It s very high, Canon has a noticable advantage up to that level, 99 of images will be made in that range, and neither camera offers image quality over ISO 25600 to make venturing higher worthwhile. I can t help but feel that this is completely irrelevant for 99 of still photographers. Things like a 2 3 stop noise advantage at iso 102,400. Photography is about light, remember. Who cares how these cameras perform when there is none.
I feel the opposite. Who cares how the camera performs at base ISO. My cell phone does pretty well in broad daylight. FF exceeded my image requirements at base ISO since it s digital inception. All I want is more sensitivity and versatility. I assume you are a sports photographer who must shoot football games at night in dark stadiums at very fast shutter speeds, mosc. I am still trying to figure out who else needs ISO 100,000.
mosc Shooting at high iso is not the only reason why photographers use FF cameras. Cell phone cameras. I wouldn t want to see my wedding photographer shooting the wedding with his iPhone or Lumia 1020 D. I think this test is a good start to show where the high-ISO advantage of the D7s should be expected dark tones at exposures for very high ISO.
But, there may also be some sensitivity difference at all ISO settings for very large aperture lenses. This is because it is easier to make large pixels accept extreme ray angles than small pixels. So, I would like to see this test also conducted at f 1. 4 to see if there is a noticeable sensitivity difference for bright tones at that f-stop. The results of this testing clearly reveal that the A7s strengths are in low read noise that comes into effect particularly in shadow areas of the image.
That being said, I wonder whether the TRUE advantage of the A7s sensor might be in allowing to significantly underexpose images and to boost shadows in postprocessing to much better effect than would be possible with other cameras. The benefits of this would be you could use much higher shutter speeds, particularly when you want or need to avoid motion blur moving objects inavailable light or when you use non-stabilized lenses and want to avoid camera shake blur.
In other words, could it be that the A7s may provide much more leeway for boosting underexposed image areas in PP and this being the true albeit not yet systematically explored advantage of the A7s over its A7 siblings or other FF cameras. Any opinions comments on that. It would really shine if it could do 1080p video at 120 fps, you could use fast shutter speed with wide apperture. Interesting concept and well thought out. significantly underexpose images and to boost shadows in postprocessing to much better effect than would be possible with other cameras.
Yeah, makes sense to me. Interesting, by 25,600 ISO, detail is being clearly obliterated by the Canon and the 7R. The 7S still holds fine detail. But then who really shoots at that ISO and keeps the results. A very small percentage that s who. think astrophotography and concert photogs. 99 of us would be better off with the A7 A7R.
This is not for everybody. This is for a specific target audience. Eg if you want to shoot a video in half moon without external light. Or you are doing concert photography. A7S is a niche camera. Again number of pixel has very nominal effect on the final output noise level. Hopefully this will stop everyone complaining about more megapixels. this camera is simply no better than the 36mp sony or the 23mp canon sensor for the same size output. Yeah it is better as a high ISO above 6400 camera than either the A7 or A7r.
The 5D and D610 and A99 too. saying it twice does not make it so. If you feel that is the case, when the canon a7R is normalized to 12mp, which very much gives an advantage to the a7S, good bless you. And I didn t say it twice. Take it up with the webmaster. Downsampling does NOT remove noise, it s a near total myth. If I had money, I might buy one, but I d be more inclined to buy a D4s or Df--they re both better high ISO cameras.
I m still glad to see Sony releasing this camera. Hope they do an A99 II with this sensor. HAR, I never said downsampling reduces noise. It actually reduces detail. to my eyes, at iso 25600, comparing the 7s to downside 7R is see no difference in noise. now, would be very interesting to print both at 300 dpi at 12x18. I bet you the A7R image would have more detail for same noise, or less noise for same detail, once processed from raw. The problem remains that the A7r makes for a noisy blotchy mess at ISO 25600, and downsampling won t fix that.
This noise and magenta and cyan blotching will most certainly mess up detail. Better to stick with the better high ISO sensor to begin with. Not sure how you re defining remove noisebut downsampling increases SNR. So, relative to signal, it does decrease noise. It s a myth, try it with any setting in Photoshop. It may be what the math claims but when the results are that bad, and they are, then the math is suspect.
S N ratio enhancement claims My guess would be that the program counting signal is confused. This is often the case with this kind of engineering estimation. The problem with the downsampling idea is that somehow downsampling would have to be able to readily identify noisy pixels in the process. If removing noise were that easy, then NR would be real easy in the camera.
And as you know it s not. Now what sort of works, tossing about 90 percent of the data from a noisy image shot with many pixels may be a bit better than shooting with fewer pixels, but then you re left with a tiny thumbnail--that s pretty blurred. Really, please try downsampling in detail, it doesn t work. Perhaps something will radically improve in the understanding of this engineering in say 10 years--then maybe this will work.
number of pixel has very nominal effect on the final output noise. Assuming same sensor size, more pixels smaller pixel. Each pixel generates read noise, thus more pixels per area more noise per area. Read noise is not bothersome when the signal is strong enough for shot noise to overwhelm read noise. But for a weak signal, read noise can be very significant.
High ISO means that the signal is weak. It is simple physics that sensors with smaller pixels will generate more noise at high ISO with other variables being more-or-less equal. Plus there are a few other potential sensitivity advantages of larger pixels. For example, larger pixels are less obstructed by circuit elements and may thus produce slightly superior QE than smaller pix.
Yeah, spot on. Except that sometimes sensor designers will be able to decrease read noise per pixel in the higher resolution camera, in which case read noise per area does not necessarily have to be higher. All you have to do is decrease per-pixel read noise by sqrt n for a n times higher resolution sensor to make read noise per area the same. In which case normalized comparisons will show little to no noise differences between the lower res higher res camera.
Therefore, in practice, lower resolution cameras don t always offer the advantages they re meant to. Although in this case, the A7S does - but only at very very high ISOs. You d be hard pressed to see normalized differences between the A7S and A7R up to ISO 12,800 - have a look yourself in the widget. Above that ISO - shadows see a significant benefit with the A7S lower aggregate read noise 3x less of read events and potentially lower resulting quantization error due to the higher conversion gain.
Also, re your point about potentially higher QE - this advantage is sometimes not as fully realized as it might otherwise be had gapless microlenses not been invented to help the potential light loss due to increased inter-pixel spacing. As for the A7S - my preliminary results so please don t quote me indicate an approx. 8 higher signal in the Raw file over the A7R same lens, aperture, shutter speed, ISO, lab lighting.
That s about a 1 9 EV advantage just in terms of light gathering ability. It s nice, but certainly not anything groundbreaking. my bet would be the noise optimizations are what really help. HowaboutRAW It s not a myth; one needs to go no further than our own studio scene to see this. Have a look at this particular comparison of low resolution cameras on the left vs. high resolution cameras on the right at ISO 6400. Although the low resolution cameras have lower noise at native resolutionsthe leveling field evens out as soon as you click the Print to normalize the comparisons by downsampling all cameras to the same 8 MP resolution.
It can t get any clearer than that. Continuing to argue against what the visual results clearly show the math dictates is just misleading our readers. Are there limits to this. And I have results that prove the fail, more than once. For example the ISO 256000 raws from the A7r and A7s with the former downsampled. And that A7r is doing an okay job, but the A7r result is noiser--just as one would expect from the full sized image.
What makes you think I ve never tried this. I don t click print to downsample, I downsample in Photoshop. You can t make the A7 D610 shoot higher ISOs like the D4 by downsampling. Now there is some possibility that print is introducing some other factor, and that, as a solution to the claims of NR, I m open to. For example printing to paper, beyond 300ppi, does help with noise reduction.
I checked again. Using the A7r and A7s ISO 25600 raws from the Seattle sky at night from the DPR test. With the raws down-loaded, I extracted them to 8 bit tiffs with the same NR settings in ACR 8. Then I downsampled the A7r tiff so its pixel dimensions were the same and, I believe 4240 across. 5, within PhotoShop CS6. Result The A7r tiff had a bit more grain, and much much more cyan and magenta blotching than the A7s tiff. Let PhotoShop use the first resampling algorithm.
I believe there are 6 to pick from. How many times do I have to repeat the test. Downsampling does not have some magic way of sorting signal from noise and holding on to signal. Now for that ISO, the A7r did surprisingly well for grain, not for blotching though. Er, thank you - because that was the entire point of this article. You claimed downsampling does not reduce noise. That s completely incorrect, which can be shown time and again simply by hitting the Print button which down-samples the image to 8MP in our studio scene.
This article was looking at any tangible gains w the A7S over the A7R - in normalized comparisons - due to the larger pixels of the A7S and or any other optimizations to the sensor signal processing. Downsampling reduces noise, but in this case iqoption blog enough - at the higher ISOs - to match the performance of the A7S. Again, that was the entire point of this article, presumably one of the reasons behind Sony making the A7S to begin with video considerations aside.
We even talked about reasons for why the normalization might not be enough. the A7S might have the following going for it lower aggregate read noise of 3x fewer pixels, potential QE increases, possibly decreased quantization error due to higher conversion gains, etc. But as for reasons why the A7R can t keep with the A7S at higher ISOs, it s definitely not that downsampling does NOT reduce noise.
That s just incorrect, and a misleading statement. It s that downsamping normalizing does not reduce noise enough to provide the same level of performance as the A7S for very, very low signals. The conclusion was that differences exist - at higher ISOs - where simple normalization does not reduce noise enough to bring the SNR of the higher resolution sensor up to that of the lower resolution sensor.
Likely because of one or more of the reasons in the previous paragraph. Yes of course downsampling does reduce noise, it reduces the rest of the picture too. The cyan and magenta blotches get smaller, by pixel count. What downsampling doesn t do is reduce noise as an overall fraction of the total pixels. Or Downsampling can t select signal over noise and toss out the noise. Otherwise NR would be really easy. That some of the downsampling options in Photoshop smear out noise differently, yes.
And sometimes that can be helpful. and yet you said Downsampling does NOT remove noise, it s a near total myth. Which is why I engaged in this discussion clarification. As for Downsampling can t select signal over noise and toss out the noise. I m not sure why you re complicating things so much. See the equations for normalization here. Noise is random deviation, which is somewhat subdued upon averaging pixels when downsizing.
Therefore, there s a tangible SNR increase. The principle is similar to averaging n exposures the SNR goes up sqrt n as you either 1 average n images, or 2 downsample n -fold downsample an image to n -times less total resolution. The camera is mainly designed for video, competing with GH4, 5D III etc. Then why the very quiet shutter. Loud shutters are a real draw back to the A7 and A7R.
There are obvious reasons to use this as still camera. Does the 5D III shoot 4K video. 5D III doesn t shoot 4K video. 5D III can shoot raw video. You can frame grab from 4K video, equals quiet shutter anyway. Raw to an external recorder, right. That s recording to a 1050x or faster CF card internally. Let s make it clear. shooting 4K videomost of which isn t actually 4K but UHD but I digress superior video.
There are so many factors involved including file compression, color compression, artifacting, motion estimation in compression, shutter roll, etc. In fact, I d pick a 1080p or 2K camera with a universal sensor shooting RAW over a 4K camera with decent compressed image. I am frequently hitting ISO 6400 and still wish for higher IQ at those and higher levels, I would prefer higher IQ http://brokersforex.site ISO 100 though, thats more important to me, but hand holding at higher ISO s is nice to have.
The results are impressive. all the cameras have decent high ISO performance. For my purposes I would take the A7R with it s higher resolution and greater dynamic range at lower ISO s. For me, I have pretty much zero need for any ISO over 6400, and in actual use rarely use anything above 3200. I kind of look at stratospheric ISO ratings much the same as stupidly high fps ratings. unless you have a very specific need it s a completely useless rating.
90 of the people who say they need 10fps don t. same things goes for these crazy high ISO ratings. choice is good iqoption blog Sony gives you three options with the A7 lineup. Conclusions 1 noise per sensor is equal enough on all 3. 2 the A7r gives you more resolution without sacrificing low light quality. And the A7r can t be used above ISO 8,000 without trouble. So you re limiting your lowlight options with that 36MP body.
3 the A7r provides the most bang for your buck for image quality. You re not comprehending the noise-per-sensor thing. The A7r is no worse than the A7s for stills. thats what I have been saying, and seeing. but there, both are crappy, a7s a little less so. is there difference in shadow noise once normalized at iso 200K, yeah, maybe.
It looks like an error has occurred. Thanks for adding this comparison, next to the standard comparisons. I hope DPReview will add more of these kind of comparisons. It really helps to get grips on the value of technological advance for your photography or when selecting a new camera. Total 157, showing 1 50 First Previous 1 2 3 4 Next Last.
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When Windows 10 first arrived in 2015, a free upgrade was as simple as clicking on the Get Windows 10 notification prompt. Things are a bit different now. That means there s no more technical support, security updates, or bug-squashing. Windows 8 will encounter the same fate in a few years. In iqoption blog words, Windows 7 is now unsafe to use, making this an excellent time to switch to Windows 10.
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A digital license ties an installed Windows platform to a key embedded in prebuilt systems from Acer, Dell, HP, and so on. Microsoft s product keys typically only work once, but hackers sometimes find workarounds so that the same key can be used on multiple PCs. That led Microsoft and manufacturers to introduce digital licenses in Windows 8 as an anti-piracy measure, so end users aren t installing the platform on additional machines.
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